[Dizzeep]

Originally Posted by E46M3BMW

First of all, what makes you question his desire? Did he not take the Magic to the finals one year? I hope you realize that he has the second highest rebound rate in NBA history, has worked with Olajuwon with his post moves, and is the best defensive center in the league today with 3x DPOY. And how can he be the best 2nd option in history when you have pairings like Magic & Kareem, Bird & McHale, Jordan & Pippen, Kobe & Shaq, LeBron & Wade, Thomas & Dumars? I don't think you realize that Howard's ceiling is only a bit higher than Alonzo Mourning, who would be the best center or just behind Dwight today, mainly due to better athleticism.

Did you even read my disclaimer? I did not question his defensive capabilities at all. I even said that he was the best defensive player since Hakeem the Dream played in the NBA.



My apologies, I should have specified Howard can be the best second option in RECENT NBA history. I should have made that specification. My bad.


As to do with my questioning his desire:

Oh, I am sorry I totally forgot that the magic that year only had Dwight Howard playing all five positons . It had nothing to do with the fact that Hedo Turkulog (spelling?), Jameer Nelson, who had the best year of his career btw and Rashard Lewis all had great seasons. He took them to the finals once (so far) and failed to even get to the eastern conference finals since then. And the fact that he has made this whole past NBA season and so far this NBA off season revolve around him and him acting like a selfish prema-donna makes me question his desire to win and be the best he can be as a player.

And I applaud Howard's effort for working on his post moves but still he relies way too much on lobs and fast break dunks to get the majority of his points, and his free throw shooting which has improved slightly is a huge joke still. There have been times where I have seen flashes of Howard being great and using post moves with authority but I have not seen enough improvement and consistency on his low post moves for me to consider him a legit number one option. How can you be considered a number one option if late in games your team does not go to you for scoring but mainly as a decoy so you can kick it out for a open three? I know it can be affective and has won them some games in the past but he is nothing like Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk in late game situations. In fact only one game winning shot comes to mind when talking about Howard and that was a lob that Jameer threw to him on an out of bounds play to beat the spurs at home.

[E46M3BMW]

Originally Posted by Dizzeep

Did you even read my disclaimer? I did not question his defensive capabilities at all. I even said that he was the best defensive player since Hakeem the Dream played in the NBA.

My apologies, I should have specified Howard can be the best second option in RECENT NBA history. I should have made that specification. My bad.

As to do with my questioning his desire:

Oh, I am sorry I totally forgot that the magic that year only had Dwight Howard playing all five positons . It had nothing to do with the fact that Hedo Turkulog (spelling?), Jameer Nelson, who had the best year of his career btw and Rashard Lewis all had great seasons. He took them to the finals once (so far) and failed to even get to the eastern conference finals since then. And the fact that he has made this whole past NBA season and so far this NBA off season revolve around him and him acting like a selfish prema-donna makes me question his desire to win and be the best he can be as a player.

And I applaud Howard's effort for working on his post moves but still he relies way too much on lobs and fast break dunks to get the majority of his points, and his free throw shooting which has improved slightly is a huge joke still. There have been times where I have seen flashes of Howard being great and using post moves with authority but I have not seen enough improvement and consistency on his low post moves for me to consider him a legit number one option. How can you be considered a number one option if late in games your team does not go to you for scoring but mainly as a decoy so you can kick it out for a open three? I know it can be affective and has won them some games in the past but he is nothing like Duncan, Garnett, or Dirk in late game situations. In fact only one game winning shot comes to mind when talking about Howard and that was a lob that Jameer threw to him on an out of bounds play to beat the spurs at home.

So a guy who you think is the best defensive player since Hakeem is to you not taking his potential seriously? LOL@that. Well, recent NBA history also includes LBJ & Wade; you know, when Wade led 06 Heat to that Championship run, and LBJ in 12.

That's great you can list his teammates in 09 as no player in NBA history has won a Championship by himself (here I can make the same emoticon too) but so what if he didn't reach the Finals since then. Were the Magic the best team in the East during the 10, 11, and 12 seasons? They weren't even the best team in 09 until KG got injured, or did you forget that ... then again maybe you didn't even know. And for the record, he actually did reach the ECF in 2010, the year after the 09 Championship run. 2011 and 12 was when the Heat trio formed, and he was injured last season. The entire point of bringing up 09 is that at least a team that can compete for the championship can be built around Howard as the 1st option, and with a viable 2nd option, they can probably win one.

I don't know what you're expecting him to be offensively. He never was a great post player, really just above average since coming into the NBA nor did he ever have that close to semi midrange that Ewing, Robinson, and Hakeem had in their NBA careers. He's not build like Shaq where he can do a drop step, hook the elbow, then just power it in. After the first few years in the league, you kind of know what you're getting at that point. It is what it is. TBH, I'm not expecting guys like him or Blake Griffen to have these amazing back to the basket games. His game is like Alonzo, another semi undersized center, who got by with with a better than average post game, was more athletic than most other centers while still being able to power it in at times, and still had enough skills to contribute offensively. The main advantage that Dwight has over Alonzo is he's more athletic/explosive, and I almost forgot that Zo was probably playing against more 7footers than Dwight is now. Putting up 20ppg whether by dunk, follow-ups, and some post moves isn't bad at all; actually putting up 20ppg by any method is pretty damn good.

Ginobili started being the end game player since Duncan started bricking his FTs; hack-a-Shaq anyone? Dirk and KG's games aren't the same as Dwight's; cannot compare 2 guys who face-up to create mismatches at another part of the floor to a primary back-to-the basket player who plays on the low block 100% of the time. And there aren't many guys who went from being a great defensive player as a rookie to developing a great offensive game in the NBA; only one is Ewing who was quite raw offensively at Georgetown. He'll be another guy who will use his athletic advantage whether by lob or just beating his opponent to a spot to get his points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/

[Dizzeep]

Originally Posted by E46M3BMW

So a guy who you think is the best defensive player since Hakeem is to you not taking his potential seriously? LOL@that. Well, recent NBA history also includes LBJ & Wade; you know, when Wade led 06 Heat to that Championship run, and LBJ in 12.

That's great you can list his teammates in 09 as no player in NBA history has won a Championship by himself (here I can make the same emoticon too) but so what if he didn't reach the Finals since then. Were the Magic the best team in the East during the 10, 11, and 12 seasons? They weren't even the best team in 09 until KG got injured, or did you forget that ... then again maybe you didn't even know. And for the record, he actually did reach the ECF in 2010, the year after the 09 Championship run. 2011 and 12 was when the Heat trio formed, and he was injured last season. The entire point of bringing up 09 is that at least a team that can compete for the championship can be built around Howard as the 1st option, and with a viable 2nd option, they can probably win one.

I don't know what you're expecting him to be offensively. He never was a great post player, really just above average since coming into the NBA nor did he ever have that close to semi midrange that Ewing, Robinson, and Hakeem had in their NBA careers. He's not build like Shaq where he can do a drop step, hook the elbow, then just power it in. After the first few years in the league, you kind of know what you're getting at that point. It is what it is. TBH, I'm not expecting guys like him or Blake Griffen to have these amazing back to the basket games. His game is like Alonzo, another semi undersized center, who got by with with a better than average post game, was more athletic than most other centers while still being able to power it in at times, and still had enough skills to contribute offensively. The main advantage that Dwight has over Alonzo is he's more athletic/explosive, and I almost forgot that Zo was probably playing against more 7footers than Dwight is now. Putting up 20ppg whether by dunk, follow-ups, and some post moves isn't bad at all; actually putting up 20ppg by any method is pretty damn good.

Ginobili started being the end game player since Duncan started bricking his FTs; hack-a-Shaq anyone? Dirk and KG's games aren't the same as Dwight's; cannot compare 2 guys who face-up to create mismatches at another part of the floor to a primary back-to-the basket player who plays on the low block 100% of the time. And there aren't many guys who went from being a great defensive player as a rookie to developing a great offensive game in the NBA; only one is Ewing who was quite raw offensively at Georgetown. He'll be another guy who will use his athletic advantage whether by lob or just beating his opponent to a spot to get his points.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/

He is great defensively but I feel he has not reached his potential as an offensive player. Why shouldn't he be a great back to the basket player? He has the tools and the athletic ability to be as such(I have seen tantalizing tidbits of it). I chalk it up to not working hard enough and having too many distractions.

I never said what he was doing was not impressive. I agree the fact that he can score 20ppg on just athletic ability is insane and impressive in its own right. Maybe I am holding Howard to too high of a standard and not appreciating what he already does for a team. You are right they did make the 2010 ECF my mistake.

I compared him to Duncan, Dirk, and KG because they are both franchise big men and number one options in their prime. Yes all three of those players styles are different but that does not mean they are not number one options which is why I compared them to Howard.

Anyways I do not want this thread to get too off topic as it is about FA movement. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

[E46M3BMW]

Originally Posted by Dizzeep

He is great defensively but I feel he has not reached his potential as an offensive player. Why shouldn't he be a great back to the basket player? He has the tools and the athletic ability to be as such(I have seen tantalizing tidbits of it). I chalk it up to not working hard enough and having too many distractions.

I never said what he was doing was not impressive. I agree the fact that he can score 20ppg on just athletic ability is insane and impressive in its own right. Maybe I am holding Howard to too high of a standard and not appreciating what he already does for a team. You are right they did make the 2010 ECF my mistake.

I compared him to Duncan, Dirk, and KG because they are both franchise big men and number one options in their prime. Yes all three of those players styles are different but that does not mean they are not number one options which is why I compared them to Howard.

Anyways I do not want this thread to get too off topic as it is about FA movement. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

Duncan, Dirk, and KG can shoot the ball within their respective range with Dirk and KG being face up players who create mismatches at another part of the floor. You don't get what this means. The big men in the NBA has changed where guys like Dirk, KG, and now LMA & KD, (guys who are 6'10"+ with crazy wing spans) etc are now face up players. They're bring guys who are accustomed to playing near the paint and bring them out into the perimeter and just beating these flat footed guys. In the 70s or 80s, these guys are probably going to be taught to play close to the basket.

If you're going to make a comparison, make the right one. Howard's game isn't like their's. I know you want to make the #1 option point, but his offensive game isn't going to get much better than it is now. His shot doesn't have range and never will since it's not something he's developed since he was a child. From 3feet to 10feet, he's not going to be knocking all of those down. All he has is back to the basket and athleticism.

But he does have good fundamentals and he can back opponents down. He can beat his opponent to the spot he wants to get to which leads to easier buckets for Dwight. Essentially the point is every offensive player wants to get to a spot on the floor to beat their opponent. So whether Dwight is being his man inside towards the baseline or the opposite way with a jump hook in the middle of the paint, he hits those spots. He might not be able to dream shake or have a 3-10foot jumper, but he does what he can with his given ability. Bynum might have a better post game with better touch around the rim, but no one is going to choose him over Dwight.

By your point, how come Jason Kidd never had a great mid range shot? Why doesn't Rhondo have a great mid range shot? Rhondo might never get one simply because he just might lack the shooting touch that someone like Calvin Murphy had. You figure when Kobe embarrassed him in the Finals by playing 5 feet off of him, daring him to shoot that he'd go and shoot all day til the next season started. And you know what, he probably did. Meanwhile the rest of Rhondo's game is still elevating his team offensively much like Dwight has when he allows Orlando to space the floor just because he's the #1 guy.

This isn't like NBA2K12 where you can add attribute points to a player and magically he gets better.

[johnhk79]

Originally Posted by Dizzeep

They (mainly Howard) have been switching their mind back and forth between teams so much that other NBA teams are hesitant to offer a deal because they do not know whether or not Howard will re-sign with their team. I honestly think that Orlando's best deal would be with LA but Bynum is pulling a Howard and is not letting people know if he would resign with Orlando (my guess would be no).

lol The media is affecting you a bit too much and create this drama with Howard talking to Rudolph and Orlando telling a bunch of different things to various ESPN sources. Then it gets blown way out of proportion.

[Bone_Stock]

Now that Magic have hired new head coach Jacque Vaughn (which happened officially today), a first time head coach, it would be a great decision for the Magic to trade him NOW. A trade by the end of the week is very possible. Don't be surprised if "Vaughn" has something to do with it...




Haven't updated this thread in a while.. Here are some more updates.

Bulls make some moves picking up Nazr Mohammed and apparently Nate Robinson ( i haven't confirmed this yet)

T-wolves sign Kirilinko

Memphis re-signs Haddadi

[johnhk79]

When the Magic trade Howard, whether tomorrow to the trade deadline, it won't be because of a 1st time head coach with almost no power on a team that is clueless when it comes to trade value.

[Bone_Stock]

Originally Posted by johnhk79

When the Magic trade Howard, whether tomorrow to the trade deadline, it won't be because of a 1st time head coach with almost no power on a team that is clueless when it comes to trade value.

obviously... But it's a good way to make the public believe the coach has power. How else do you give a first time head coach credibility...


I think you should change your name to EA Sports because you challenge everything...

[E46M3BMW]

Originally Posted by Bone_Stock

obviously... But it's a good way to make the public believe the coach has power. How else do you give a first time head coach credibility...


I think you should change your name to EA Sports because you challenge everything...

what does EA sports challenge?

[Bone_Stock]

Originally Posted by E46M3BMW

what does EA sports challenge?

Its EA games not EA sports... It's their slogan...

http://youtu.be/PreD23BeCpQ