[JPoland]

New M3 is just fine. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that the instructor is there to guide you and help you learn safely.

As others have said, if the bug bites you then you need to start thinking about something cheaper. In my 12 year old E36 M3 with weight reduction, good suspension, and race pads I am passing new Porsche GT3s, Corvettes (even a ZR1), E46 and E90 M3s without much effort in the less experienced run groups (with stock power and street tires) so less power defintely does not take away from the experience and with a less experienced driver, it actually makes it more fun.

[steeezm3]

Originally Posted by JPoland

so less power defintely does not take away from the experience and with a less experienced driver, it actually makes it more fun.

ding ding ding ding. I prefer to track an underpowered car. Much of the fun being in these mixed run groups that you get to work on how to keep up with all of the powerhouses, helps the learning experience greatly.

[mabbadgerbimmer]

[QUOTE=admranger;1064482259] Heck, many instructors think the E36M3 is waaaaay too much car for a beginner (it is).

Actually being an instructor and a former student who started out with an E36 M3 it is a perfect car with which to start your track experience.

1. Cost is very reasonable
2. Easy to drive, very forgiving.
3. Under powered. Only 240HP and weighs in at close to 3,100 lbs.
4. Fun to drive on a track.

A great car for which you will be the limiting factor for a long time.

As to the S4 thoughts. I have a new S4 as my daily driver. Actually it is the best DD I have ever had. Great engine, competent handling (particularly with the sport rear diff), very comfortable, far better interior than a BMW and with snow tires and Quattro great for the winter. In a straight line it is as fast as my highly modified E46 M3. But it is HEAVY. I would not use this as a track car. Not even remotely close to my E46 M3 as a track car.

[jcreme]

I just did my first Autocross in my E46 M3 and I loved it. I found it very easy to deal with, very balanced, and very gently easing into the loss of traction at Autocross speed.

It was basically 5x car than I could really put to use, but it was a gentleman about it and humored me while I felt my way around.

I saw some 2002's putting down faster laps than anybody. It seems if you've got a well balanced car (ie any bMW) you have a LOT to before the car is the thing holding you back.

Seems like your choice is really about what you want to drive the rest of the time.

[Mvez]

Originally Posted by steeezm3

ding ding ding ding. I prefer to track an underpowered car. Much of the fun being in these mixed run groups that you get to work on how to keep up with all of the powerhouses, helps the learning experience greatly.

every M3 is a momentum car, even the E92.

[steeezm3]

Originally Posted by Mvez

every M3 is a momentum car, even the E92.

Oh yeah, compared to what?

I don't consider 300+ & 400+ whp cars to be in such a category, cars where idiot mistakes can be made and made up for by sloppily mashing on the gas.

But I track a honda, so obviously my definition of a momentum car (one that doesn't even have 200whp or 125 ft/lbs) is a tad different than yours.

[SJDave]

I have only tracked my car 6 times this past year, a stock 2005 E46 with track alignment specs, stiffer sway bars and R compound tires, and I am just about ready to turn the Traction Control OFF. The coaches at HOD recommended I leave it on and concentrate on being smooth around the track, like a momentum car, and not mash the throttle coming out of the apexes and onto the straights. So they consider it NOT a momentum car with it's power to weight ratio, but I guess it is all relative depending on the track.

So could I be faster with the traction control off?
At this point in my driving experience, probably not...on Thunderhill there are only 4 corners out of 15 that it refuses to give me more throttle exiting the corners...no problem on the straights. I thought about it, and basically I am carrying enough speed into the apex now... from being smooth, that I use the whole track on exit anyway...then the next corner approaches so quickly that I am on the brakes again setting up for the turn in point. So on Thunderhill, there are limited places to use the power. Where do I pass the Miatas? Not in the tight corners, they are right on my butt, only on the higher speed sections of the track.

Momentum cars or not...they are amazing on the track; every coach that has driven my car can't help but praise the engine and handling.

I ran in B group last time (intermediate) and was the fastest car out there that day...so I looked up the lap times on our group and the Advanced Group (C) and a few (Ds, race prepped), I was amazed how fast a basically stock M3 is compared to some more expensive and highly modified cars, some with really good experienced drivers. My brother in law ( a true novice ) ran my M3 in the A group also, his first time driving on a track, first manual shift car in 20 years, his time is noted below. Also amazed how fast the race prepped Miata, momentum car was with a PRO driver, amazing how slow the Z06s are with novices driving, amazing I was faster then 2 GT3s, a lotus, and both Ferraris. Sweeet!

2:06 - Porsche Turbo - race prepped "D" group
2:07 - Miller Motorsports Mustang Race Car (HOD Owner David Rey)
2:08 - Porsche GT3 - highly modded "D" group
2:11 - Mazda RX7 Race Car (Instructor)
2:11 - Camaro Race Car (Instructor) "D" group
2:11 - Mitsubishi EVO highly modded "C group"
2:10 - Porsche Carrera 2S (Instructor) "C group"
2:12 - **ME**
2:13 - Miller Motorsports Mustang Race Car "C group"
2:13 - Porsche GT3 "C group"
2:13 - Ferrari 430 Modena "C group"
2:14 - Porsche GT3 "C group"
2:15 - Mazda Miata Spec Racer (US NASA Womens Champ Driving)
2:15 - Lotus Elise "B group"
2:17 - Ferrari 360 Modena "B group"....
2:18 - Subura STI "C group"
2:19 - Mercedes 560 SL supercharged "C group"
2:20 - BMW 330i "B group"
2:20 - 2010 Camaro Z28 "B group"
2:21 - Race Prepped Mini Cooper (Mini Mania) "C group"
2:22 - Mazda Miata Race Prepped "C group"
2:23 - Mazda Miata Race Prepped "C group"
2:23 - Corvette Z06s (2) new ones "B group"
2:24 - Race Prepped Mini Cooper Mini Mania "B group"
2:26 - New Hemi Cuda "A group"
2:28 - White Miata sticky R compound tires "B group"
2:36 - ** My brother in law, first time out ** in my M3 "A group"
2:50 - Porsche Convertible "A group"

The Camaro and Lotus drivers didn't believe my car was only 333 HP....sweeeet! I didn't tell them about leaving Traction Control ON, no sense rubbing salt in the wound.

A couple pics with new Hotchkiss sway bars installed, 89% stiffer rear, 15% stiffer front. Car points in much better now as the rear kicks out a bit more then with stock setup. With Traction control off this year, I will have to watch it coming out of the corners with this sway bar setup.

[dhahlen]

Originally Posted by SJDave

I have only tracked my car 6 times this past year, a stock 2005 E46 with track alignment specs, stiffer sway bars and R compound tires, and I am just about ready to turn the Traction Control OFF. The coaches at HOD recommended I leave it on and concentrate on being smooth around the track, like a momentum car, and not mash the throttle coming out of the apexes and onto the straights. So they consider it NOT a momentum car with it's power to weight ratio, but I guess it is all relative depending on the track.

So could I be faster with the traction control off?
At this point in my driving experience, probably not...on Thunderhill there are only 4 corners out of 15 that it refuses to give me more throttle exiting the corners...no problem on the straights. I thought about it, and basically I am carrying enough speed into the apex now... from being smooth, that I use the whole track on exit anyway...then the next corner approaches so quickly that I am on the brakes again setting up for the turn in point. So on Thunderhill, there are limited places to use the power. Where do I pass the Miatas? Not in the tight corners, they are right on my butt, only on the higher speed sections of the track.

Momentum cars or not...they are amazing on the track; every coach that has driven my car can't help but praise the engine and handling.

I ran in B group last time (intermediate) and was the fastest car out there that day...so I looked up the lap times on our group and the Advanced Group (C) and a few (Ds, race prepped), I was amazed how fast a basically stock M3 is compared to some more expensive and highly modified cars, some with really good experienced drivers. My brother in law ( a true novice ) ran my M3 in the A group also, his first time driving on a track, first manual shift car in 20 years, his time is noted below. Also amazed how fast the race prepped Miata, momentum car was with a PRO driver, amazing how slow the Z06s are with novices driving, amazing I was faster then 2 GT3s, a lotus, and both Ferraris. Sweeet!

2:06 - Porsche Turbo - race prepped "D" group
2:07 - Miller Motorsports Mustang Race Car (HOD Owner David Rey)
2:08 - Porsche GT3 - highly modded "D" group
2:11 - Mazda RX7 Race Car (Instructor)
2:11 - Camaro Race Car (Instructor) "D" group
2:11 - Mitsubishi EVO highly modded "C group"
2:10 - Porsche Carrera 2S (Instructor) "C group"
2:12 - **ME**
2:13 - Miller Motorsports Mustang Race Car "C group"
2:13 - Porsche GT3 "C group"
2:13 - Ferrari 430 Modena "C group"
2:14 - Porsche GT3 "C group"
2:15 - Mazda Miata Spec Racer (US NASA Womens Champ Driving)
2:15 - Lotus Elise "B group"
2:17 - Ferrari 360 Modena "B group"....
2:18 - Subura STI "C group"
2:19 - Mercedes 560 SL supercharged "C group"
2:20 - BMW 330i "B group"
2:20 - 2010 Camaro Z28 "B group"
2:21 - Race Prepped Mini Cooper (Mini Mania) "C group"
2:22 - Mazda Miata Race Prepped "C group"
2:23 - Mazda Miata Race Prepped "C group"
2:23 - Corvette Z06s (2) new ones "B group"
2:24 - Race Prepped Mini Cooper Mini Mania "B group"
2:26 - New Hemi Cuda "A group"
2:28 - White Miata sticky R compound tires "B group"
2:36 - ** My brother in law, first time out ** in my M3 "A group"
2:50 - Porsche Convertible "A group"

The Camaro and Lotus drivers didn't believe my car was only 333 HP....sweeeet! I didn't tell them about leaving Traction Control ON, no sense rubbing salt in the wound.

A couple pics with new Hotchkiss sway bars installed, 89% stiffer rear, 15% stiffer front. Car points in much better now as the rear kicks out a bit more then with stock setup. With Traction control off this year, I will have to watch it coming out of the corners with this sway bar setup.

I just slapped the hotchkis bars on last week, I'll be tracking with them this weekend. I have them full stiff in the front, and lowest setting in the rear.

Seems you've done the opposite, going full in the rear and soft in the front.

When I was running on PSS9's with full stiffness, I would engage the traction control coming out of some hard corners. When I turned it off, I took the same turn just as fast and caught the rear end sliding a bit. It was partially due to a patch of water that was on the track from the rain, this was the only time I felt it engage.

I feel it better to learn to drive the car without the traction control, this way you know when you make a mistake and the car will let you know. It sounds like you're familiar with feathering the throttle rather than mashing it, but I've been told to "lean into" the throttle, slowly increasing power as you approach the straights.

I'll be running a square setup this time around as well, 18x9 with 265/35/18's, using camber plates in the front to get about -3*, and adjusting rear to about -2*.

There are a lot of stock E46 M3's that race out in Arizona, there are also some full race ready M3's. My car was never tracked on stock suspension, so I can't give my opinion there. I still think the PSS9's are too soft, I'll eventually go with a new spring, then to AST4100 or Moton as my skill level increases.

I've passed all sorts of cars on the track, it's not always about speed, it's about following the line. While I want to pass everyone I come across, I rather just hot pit and let them all fly by so I have a nice long stretch of track to run on without anyone in front of me. I'll worry about passing and lap times when competition becomes the focus. Until now, I just enjoy driving the car on the track, any chance I get.

If you adjust your sway bars again, let me know what you think. Depending on how it feels this weekend, I may go a bit softer in the front!

[SJDave]

I just checked the specs on the sway bars, I was off a bit: Front settings are +11, 28 & 49% stiffer then stock bars, I am using 11% stiffer. Rear are +79 & 105%, I am using 79% stiffer. I'm running -2.5 degrees camber all around. Stock springs and shocks.

I have been taking my car to BTM Motorwerkes in Campbell, Ca for service and advise on modifications, I complained about the understeer and Brad's experience said stiffen the rear sway bar, less body roll on the rear of the car, less weight transfer to the outside tire, more slip angle at the rear. I showed him some of the track photos with stock sway bars and the R compound tires (245/18 all around) and he instantly said the tires are overpowering the suspension with grip. Hotchkiss bars were recommended, stiffer spings also, but I didn't want to give up ride comfort just yet.

So I am (11 / 79) % stiffer....you are (49 / 79) % stiffer.
Both cars should understeer less then stock, mine noticeably more then yours. Be interesting for you to try the 28% front next time out and compare the handing.

I am just mastering rolling on the throttle smoothly when exiting and getting annoyed when the Stability Control intercedes, so hence my desire to turn it off this year. I left it on as a safety net last year, I'm 60 and my reactions aren't as quick now, didn't want to spin the car and damage it....it might have saved a spin 2 or 3 times last year. I have definitely learned to control my adrenaline and excitement this year and have gotten the basics of smooth, so I feel I am ready to take on modulating the throttle at the limit of grip away from the computer. After I drive it this year without the Traction control, I may want to move toward your F/R bias to reduce the oversteer a bit. I think I would increase the front to 28% next and see how it feels. If the car won't turn in under power at this setting, then take the rear to 105%. I tell you, the ability to put power on in a long sweeper without the car "pushing" or understeering is dramatic with the current Hotchkiss setup versus stock. I lowered my lap times around 3 seconds per lap with the new sway bars. Ride is just slightly rougher on the street, not that bad with these settings, but noticeable (to my wife in particular).

I have been learning to hot pit instead of getting frustrated in conga lines, works well.... but the thrill of sitting on the bumper of a Lotus Elise and watching him drive progressively worse, missing the lines, as he struggles to pull away...and then eventually spin...is priceless!! It aint racing, but it is pretty good fun.

Good luck next time out, I won't be going until March, but I'll post if I change the settings. My 245 Hankook Ventus C15's are about gone after 7 track days, did you have to roll the front fenders to get the 265's to fit?? Sounds like a nice set up. So I'm guessing I need to find another set of rear 18" stock wheels (9") and buy some spacer plates for the offset mounting on the front...how did you get them to fit?

Dave

E=dhahlen;1064581406]I just slapped the hotchkis bars on last week, I'll be tracking with them this weekend. I have them full stiff in the front, and lowest setting in the rear.

Seems you've done the opposite, going full in the rear and soft in the front. When I was running on PSS9's with full stiffness, I would engage the traction control coming out of some hard corners. When I turned it off, I took the same turn just as fast and caught the rear end sliding a bit. It was partially due to a patch of water that was on the track from the rain, this was the only time I felt it engage.

I feel it better to learn to drive the car without the traction control, this way you know when you make a mistake and the car will let you know. It sounds like you're familiar with feathering the throttle rather than mashing it, but I've been told to "lean into" the throttle, slowly increasing power as you approach the straights.

I'll be running a square setup this time around as well, 18x9 with 265/35/18's, using camber plates in the front to get about -3*, and adjusting rear to about -2*.

There are a lot of stock E46 M3's that race out in Arizona, there are also some full race ready M3's. My car was never tracked on stock suspension, so I can't give my opinion there. I still think the PSS9's are too soft, I'll eventually go with a new spring, then to AST4100 or Moton as my skill level increases.

I've passed all sorts of cars on the track, it's not always about speed, it's about following the line. While I want to pass everyone I come across, I rather just hot pit and let them all fly by so I have a nice long stretch of track to run on without anyone in front of me. I'll worry about passing and lap times when competition becomes the focus. Until now, I just enjoy driving the car on the track, any chance I get.

If you adjust your sway bars again, let me know what you think. Depending on how it feels this weekend, I may go a bit softer in the front![/QUOTE]

[Fatal Flash]

I have a race-ready E30 325 I built myself (was my 1st car), and now im ready for an upgrade to an E46.

Ccontact me at mclaren281@netscape.net if you are interested. It was an amazing car, and is still ROCK solid. Competitive as well