[aeronaut]

Sorry for another strut/spring post, but I've confused myself. What I do NOT want is a car lowered by more than 1/2", too stiff for city bumpy roads, and so stiff I have to do a lot of suspension and underbody structural stiffening. What I DO want is one of the following:

1) Stock ride/stock components (I know how to get this one),
2) Stock springs/aftermarket dampers, but ride no stiffer than 20% more than stock, and use stock sway bar and attachment points,
or 3) 10-20% stiffer springs, aftermarket dampers, at most 1/2" drop, and us stock sway bar and attachment points.

I keep looking at koni or bilstein shocks/dampers, BUT:
- The only Koni's I can find are the type you gut the stock strut and put in a cartridge. I have not had good luck with these in the past on other cars.
- The only Bilsteins I can find are the 'sport' version (don't seem to have the 'heavyduty' version available for all 4 corners of the E36 M3), and the 'sport' versions are always advertised 'for use with lowering springs'. And I've read posts on here that the Bilstein sport shocks are 'quite a bit stiffer' than OEM.

Help!

[fiveightandten]

Get stock Sachs and be done with it. You will feel an increase in stiffness with those in a way over your worn stock stuff and I think it will be just what you're looking for. The stock stuff is a highly underrated setup.

Ever read the Car and Driver "best handling car at any price" article? What suspension did that car have on it? You guessed it...stock.

You can't find Konis that aren't inserts, because that's all they make for our application. Billies are way stiffer than what you're looking for.

[cscat87]

I have Bilsteins with stock springs on my E36, and they are definitely 'quite a bit stiffer'.

[aeronaut]

Thanks folks, exactly what I was looking for. Sachs it is!!

[Richardsperry]

The Koni inserts work very well and have had no problems that I know of for the last 15 or so years that they've been available. They will work very well with stock springs, and I've seen them on sale for less than $700... The stock Sachs/Boge units are a fine replacement, but not in the same league as the Koni's, or Billys in terms of quality or shock life.

A better spring is the H&R OE Sport. about 1/2" lower and 15% stiffer. (same sprig rate as the H&R Sport springs.) Paired with the Koni's it's a very comfortable and capable choice. (that's what I've had on my car for the last 10 or so years. The only downside is you have buy the 95 upper spring hat. (about $40 total for the two).

I would never recommend Billy's for the E36 M3. They never got the shock valving correct. Way too much compression damping. Frost heaves, highway expansion joints, pot holes, are a crashing experience.

In summery, Sachs or Koni for a shock replacement, and the OE Sports for spring if you want a bit more control and "slightly" lower.

[scoobiedoo2029]

Originally Posted by Richardsperry

spring is the H&R OE Sport. about 1/2" lower and 15% stiffer. (same sprig rate as the H&R Sport springs.) Paired with the Koni's it's a very comfortable and capable choice. (that's what I've had on my car for the last 10 or so years. The only downside is you have buy the 95 upper spring hat. (about $40 total for the two).

if you can find a set used pick up a set of dinan springs, you wont need to get the upper spring perch from a 95 and they feel great and only lower the car a tiny bit. just enough to look better but i can still clear curbs with my front lip if i pull a bit to far into a parking spot. dont pay dinan $400 for springs though its a rip off.... that said im very happy with my dinan springs on koni's.

buying koni's from dinan isnt a bad idea, they dont want to much more then other vendors you could get them at your local dealer(if they sell dinan stuff) and maybe save on shipping and they do what no other vendor does to koni's... make matched sets, already adjusted.

read:
http://www.farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html
or go talk to any professional shock rebuilder about how inaccurate koni's are on the dyno off the shelf


"Koni Yellows have to be bought in batches and then matched - and YES, there IS enough variation in off-the-shelf Yellows to make this necessary." its nothing to do with koni's or e36 shocks it has to do with adjustable twin tube shocks, physics is a ***** there is a reason there are more expencive products out there, but koni is great for the price point its built for, but you cant have everything for cheap.

[aeronaut]

Originally Posted by Richardsperry

The Koni inserts work very well and have had no problems that I know of for the last 15 or so years that they've been available. They will work very well with stock springs, and I've seen them on sale for less than $700... The stock Sachs/Boge units are a fine replacement, but not in the same league as the Koni's, or Billys in terms of quality or shock life.

A better spring is the H&R OE Sport. about 1/2" lower and 15% stiffer. (same sprig rate as the H&R Sport springs.) Paired with the Koni's it's a very comfortable and capable choice. (that's what I've had on my car for the last 10 or so years. The only downside is you have buy the 95 upper spring hat. (about $40 total for the two).

I would never recommend Billy's for the E36 M3. They never got the shock valving correct. Way too much compression damping. Frost heaves, highway expansion joints, pot holes, are a crashing experience.

In summery, Sachs or Koni for a shock replacement, and the OE Sports for spring if you want a bit more control and "slightly" lower.

Thanks again folks for helping me think through this. Lot's of reading various posts has me deciding between OEM or your recommended Koni with stock springs or H&R OE springs. My only comment is about your statement that H&R's are ~15% stiffer than OEM springs.

What I'm finding randomly posted around the web is roughly the following spring rates:
Stock E36 M3: 105f , 335r
H&R OE: 200f , 380r

Which shows H&R OE's front about 1.9x OEM, and rears about 1.14x OEM.

After reading your comments and white-hot's review of the koni/HR setup, I'm pretty darn tempted.

Big question, will this setup require/need any of the weld-in subframe stiffening?

[fiveightandten]

Originally Posted by aeronaut

Thanks again folks for helping me think through this. Lot's of reading various posts has me deciding between OEM or your recommended Koni with stock springs or H&R OE springs. My only comment is about your statement that H&R's are ~15% stiffer than OEM springs.

What I'm finding randomly posted around the web is roughly the following spring rates:
Stock E36 M3: 105f , 335r
H&R OE: 200f , 380r

Which shows H&R OE's front about 1.9x OEM, and rears about 1.14x OEM.

After reading your comments and white-hot's review of the koni/HR setup, I'm pretty darn tempted.

Big question, will this setup require/need any of the weld-in subframe stiffening?

It's a nice setup. It doesn't ride hard at all, and the car feels more responsive and is more eager to respond to inputs. Stock is also a great setup and very underrated, but if you want to go a hair more aggressive, the H&R and Koni combo is nice, although a bit more work and a bit more expensive.

FYI, H&R OE sport springs require 1995 M3 front upper spring perches.

[aeronaut]

Originally Posted by fiveightandten

It's a nice setup. It doesn't ride hard at all, and the car feels more responsive and is more eager to respond to inputs. Stock is also a great setup and very underrated, but if you want to go a hair more aggressive, the H&R and Koni combo is nice, although a bit more work and a bit more expensive.

FYI, H&R OE sport springs require 1995 M3 front upper spring perches.

Thanks, I've got a 95 so I'm good there!

[white-hot]

Originally Posted by aeronaut

What I'm finding randomly posted around the web is roughly the following spring rates:
Stock E36 M3: 105f , 335r
H&R OE: 200f , 380r

Which shows H&R OE's front about 1.9x OEM, and rears about 1.14x OEM.

After reading your comments and white-hot's review of the koni/HR setup, I'm pretty darn tempted.

Big question, will this setup require/need any of the weld-in subframe stiffening?

Couple things. The rate is a bit higher but since they are progressive springs it doesn't feel all that much stiffer during normal street driving. You will notice it but it is not a major change from stock. If you only drive on the street Nick is right about the OE suspension. It is truly fantastic all by itself.

Remember that the rear units I purchased are not the OTS Koni's that you get for the M3, but the externally adjusted ones. They may not have the same valving as the normal Koni and also require different RSM's to accommodate the 12mm shaft. Not to mention the much higher price. You get what you pay for.

The reinforcements for the M3 are a good idea regardless of suspension setup, and though none of them are required for a street car they can be situational. If you run a larger rear sway bar, get the AKG sway reinforcement. If you drive the car hard in autoX/track events get the RTAB pocket reinforcement. If you run bolt-through engine and trans mounts get the front subframe reinforcements.